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Test Those Breasts ™️
This podcast by Jamie Vaughn is a deep-dive discussion on a myriad of breast cancer topics, such as early detection, the initial shock of diagnosis, testing/scans, treatment, loss of hair, caregiving, surgery, emotional support, and advocacy.
These episodes will include breast cancer survivors, thrivers, caregivers, surgeons, oncologists, therapists, and other specialists who can speak to many different topics.
Disclaimer: I am not a doctor and not all information in this podcast comes from qualified health care providers, therefore does not constitute medical advice. For personalized medical advice, you should reach out to one of the qualified healthcare providers interviewed on this podcast and/or seek medical advice from your own providers.
Test Those Breasts ™️
Ep. 32 Dr. Elisabeth Potter's Empathetic Approach for Compassionate Breast Reconstruction
When Dr. Elisabeth Potter first witnessed a mastectomy, it was a pivotal moment that set her on a path to becoming a leader in natural breast reconstruction. Now, as my guest, she shares her profound dedication to reshaping lives through innovative microsurgical techniques like the DIEP flap procedure. Our conversation delves into not only the medical intricacies of her work, but the emotional odyssey of healing and self-acceptance her patients embark upon.
Moments of vulnerability often lead to the greatest strengths, and this rings especially true in the realm of breast reconstruction. Dr. Potter's insights remind us that for many women, rebuilding their bodies is an integral part of reclaiming their identity after cancer. She eloquently articulates the necessity of compassionate, patient-centered care that embraces the whole person – body, mind, and spirit. It's a compelling reminder of the resilience harbored within those who journey through reconstruction, and the sacred role that medical professionals play in facilitating their recovery.
Looking towards the horizon, we celebrate the recent strides in advocacy that have fortified women's healthcare rights and discuss the ongoing need to adapt health legislation to the evolving landscape of medical options. Dr. Potter forecasts a future bright with the promise of progress, reflecting on the impact of female surgeons' rising prominence and the critical importance of advocacy in women's health.
Contact Dr. Elisabeth Potter:
Elisabeth@drpotter.com
Dr. Potter's Website
Resources:
Women's Health and Cancer Rights Act - Please read!
Interview with Dr. Cabiling - Jamie's breast surgeon
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Where to find Jamie:
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Jamie Vaughn in the News!
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I am not a doctor and not all information in this podcast comes from qualified healthcare providers, therefore may not constitute medical advice. For personalized medical advice, you should reach out to one of the qualified healthcare providers interviewed on this podcast and/or seek medical advice from your own providers .
Welcome to Test those Breasts podcast. I'm your host, jamie Vaughan. I'm a retired teacher of 20 years and a recent breast cancer survivor. My life has been pretty nut so for over a year and many of you most likely know just how overwhelming this diagnosis is, and the more I can help empower women, the better. I launched my podcast on June 11, 2023, which was the one year anniversary of my diagnosis as a healing mechanism and have made it my mission to help shorten the learning curve for future diagnosed breast cancer patients and their caregivers. I want you to know that you are not alone. I was told from the very beginning that being diagnosed with breast cancer opens us up to the sisterhood of all sisterhoods, but some people need that extra help and encouragement and all of the confusing and many times, downright scary information they are being flooded with. I've been interviewing many survivors, caregivers, oncologists, surgeons, nurses, therapists, advocates and more in order to provide much needed holistic guidance for your journey. Breast cancer is such an epidemic, so the more empowered we are, the better. Now let's listen to this next episode of Test those Breasts. Today, I'm honored and thrilled to have Dr Elizabeth Potter on my show Bored, certified by the American Board of Plastic Surgery, dr Potter completed her undergrad studies at Princeton University with a focus in molecular biology.
Speaker 1:She received her medical degree from the Emory University School of Medicine in Atlanta, georgia. Following a plastic surgery integrated residency at the University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center in Dallas, she completed a reconstructive plastic surgery and microsurgery fellowship with MD Anderson in Houston, texas. Dr Potter specializes in natural breast reconstruction and has performed over a thousand deep flap surgeries using patients natural fat and tissue. Dr Potter formerly worked in the private sector as a regulatory analyst of FDA law. She possesses a uniquely informed view regarding the safety and efficacy of breast implants. Because of her expertise in natural breast reconstruction, she continues to monitor the recent research developments regarding the increase in BIA-ALCL diagnosed patient cases. In addition to traditional breast implants, dr Potter provides patients with safe, effective natural breast reconstruction alternatives.
Speaker 1:A champion for animals, dr Potter has rescued numerous dogs over the past few years. In her spare time, you'll find her doting on her current pack of six in Austin, texas. Well, hello, dr Potter. It's so great to have you on my show. I am so excited that you are here and I'm honored because I've just ran across you on Instagram after my own surgery last year and for a few different reasons. I followed you and watched your lives and I just know so much more about you and I just wanted to have you on my show because I feel like you can add so much value to my audience. And just how are you today?
Speaker 2:I'm great and I am honored to be here with you. Honestly, the last several years have told me that the patient should be at the center of everything we're doing. Listen, you're the star. I'm here to celebrate you and add what I can.
Speaker 1:Well, great. I do want to let you know that I know that you're pretty humble, I know that much. I can tell that you are on your social media and you give a lot of credit to the other advocates out there, the patients and everything. But we also, as patients, want you to know how much we just love you and appreciate the fact that you have advocated for us and God has all rallied together where we made such great progress and we'll talk about that part a little bit later. So I just want to let you know that this is what we talk about out there.
Speaker 2:So we love you, we have girl crushes on you, so I'm just saying I feel the love and you're right, I think I'm comfortable sometimes receiving praise or thanks. I really it really does feel like such a privilege and what I'm supposed to be doing, but I want you to know that I feel that and that makes me feel really good. So thank you.
Speaker 1:I'm glad I would like to start out with just. Can you share with us how you became so involved with breast surgery and how it led you to your love for micro surgery, Sure.
Speaker 2:Actually, you know, I was a medical student at Emory long ago in Georgia and I had no idea that breast reconstruction really existed. But I knew that I wanted to be a surgeon. I knew that I liked working with my hands. I liked art, I've liked physical things, I liked sports. I knew that there was that level of exhaustion and intensity that I loved and surgery seemed to be the right thing. So it's on my surgical oncology or cancer surgery rotation and I, as a medical student, saw a mastectomy at Emory hospital. We finished the mastectomy and my attending the boss of the room said that I was free to go. We were done for the day that the plastic surgeons were going to be coming in and finishing the case. And they did. And there was such a lovely group of people. They walked in the room and they invited me to stay. They said hey, elizabeth, if you'd like to stay with us, you're welcome. And I saw a tram flap. Breast reconstruction that day. That was my first introduction and I was overwhelmed that you could move a part of someone's body in that way and create a breast and one day, right that you could treat cancer and do a reconstruction all in that one surgery. It rang so many bells for me the care of careful sewing and of really focusing on the patient in the operating room, thinking about how this outcome was going to be felt and lived with by the patient. I just loved it.
Speaker 2:I decided that day that I was going to do breast reconstruction. I did and I said I went to the plastic surgery department and said how do I do this? I mean, it's been my third year, I know it's maybe I'm late to the game and they said Just keep coming to our cases. So I gave up all my vacation and I just showed up at all the cases and the rest is kind of history that's really fascinating. Whenabouts was that? I'm going to say that was probably 2005 and a trim. Okay, so we're very common in Georgia. It was one of the places that that surgery was pioneered. Emory Hospital has an amazing history of plastic surgery, so I truly have seen the full evolution of breast reconstruction in my practice.
Speaker 1:Okay, that's really awesome. Like I said, I never even knew that even existed. All I knew is you know, when people talk about what we call boob jobs is you get, you know your implants, and that's all I ever knew. So it's just so fascinating to me. Can you kind of walk us back to what some of your experience was? What kind of experience did you encounter during your education and early practice?
Speaker 2:Well, I'd say that first seeing breast reconstruction when I began as a medical student, it was a very traumatic operation. Patients went to the intensive care unit. They had difficulty standing and walking. They were on really high doses of pain medicine. Postoperatively it seemed like the problem it was solving. So the problem of mastectomy and breast cancer seemed very worthy of the attention. But the solution that was provided the tram flap right was amazing but clearly not enough, and that was clear early on.
Speaker 2:And then when I went to my residency at UT Southwestern, I saw which was another real hotbed of plastic surgery. There were some amazing things happening there. I saw perforator flap reconstruction for the first time, so deep flap reconstruction, and at that time those surgeries took gosh. I was in a deep flap as a resident. That took 20 hours. It wasn't uncommon for those surgeries to take 10 or 12 hours, but I saw that the careful attention that was paid to not destroying the muscle was important. That was an improvement on removing muscle. So I'd say that during my residency I saw some efficiencies achieved and I was able to be around people who did some breast reconstruction and people who were really experts in deep flap surgery and I learned then that to do this well, you need to do it all the time. The difference in those who did it every once in a while you know, a couple of times a month they might have a 14, 15 hour case Whereas you know back then it would be like Mike St Sear or another attending who did this a lot took less than half the time to do that surgery. So yeah, and then I went to MD Anderson and MD Anderson was really what it was meant to be. It was advanced training, advanced learning in patient care. There weren't that many surgeons at MD Anderson doing deep flaps at that time. David Chang was one. He's now at the University of Chicago, an amazing human and mentor and surgeon. Roman Skoraki, who's now at Ohio State, was there. They taught me a lot about the finesse of doing those types of surgery. But still, I saw muscle being taken or injured. I saw really long recovery processes for patients, very extended stays five, six days in the hospital.
Speaker 2:When I started my own practice, I set my mind on refining that even further. How good can I get at this? And my measure of success was the patient's experience and outcome. So what things that I can do will affect the patient's outcome the most. What I found was my efficiency in the OR had the biggest impact. Taking a surgery from eight hours to four was transformative and learning just to be very directed in my dissection and my operating Go right for the blood vessel and don't touch anything else, leaving as little trace of having been there as possible.
Speaker 2:And now I see my patients today in clinic who had deep flap surgery this week. One of them, her surgery was three hours and 11 minutes for bilateral deeps and she's standing up straight today. That's this week. She came to me from out of the mouth. Yeah, so I see the evolution of when I've poured myself into becoming excellent, with the bar, the standard being set at the patient experience. It's been so rewarding because I truly do care that the result has an impact for the patient, and it's also been the rate of success and the rate of change has been like invigorating. There's still things I can improve and as a team we talk about that every week. It's amazing.
Speaker 1:Those are some of the questions that if somebody is considering to do deep flap, those are some of the questions they wanna ask their surgeons. They wanna ask them how many deep flap surgeries have you done? And we know that you've done well over a thousand, Is that right?
Speaker 2:Me too at this point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Okay yeah.
Speaker 1:I don't know, it's a lot. I mean, it's a lot right, and so you have really been working towards perfecting that craft and that is so important and for people not just to go to just any plastic surgeon who says, oh yeah, we have it on our menu, we can do that. Just a little kind of backstory for me is that I was going down the mastectomy and implant road here where I live and for whatever reason, I call it Kismet. I had about three different friends of mine, totally separate friends of mine, who reached out to me. One was back in the summer when I had just been diagnosed and I really didn't pay any attention to it because I wasn't in that space yet.
Speaker 1:And then fast forward to after my chemo and it was time to talk about breast surgery. I had two other friends, completely different friends, who had gone and gotten this thing called deep flap, where they take the tissue, and I'm like you know there's something to this. I didn't realize there was even such a thing. I had no idea I need to look into this, and that's how I got on the road of actually really looking into it. I didn't have a long period of time to think about it because they needed to get that cancer out of there. But what I did find is that they don't have anyone here in our area that specializes in that, and I had the wherewithal to make sure that I went somewhere that was very, very well known and they had the top of the line surgeons in there.
Speaker 1:This is before I even knew who you were, and so, yeah, I was just like blown away. And Dr Kapling is my surgeon and he just did such an amazing job. I just absolutely love him and he's gonna be doing my second phase. But I was just so blown away that there was such a thing that you could do and that there were actually options for women, and having those options is everything to do with that holistic care, too, and doing what's right for the woman, and I always say that implants for some women is fine. That's what they want and it's great for them, but I love the fact that there are options, so I'm so glad that you're out there. So what happened? How did you end up getting into a solo practice? What happened? How did that happen?
Speaker 2:That's funny, the universe. I think I loved being in the Anderson academics. It's amazing and I think the service that academic plastic surgery provides to communities and also just to raising up the next generation of surgeons is amazing. But I was raised in rural Georgia and I wanted my father was an allergist and internal medicine doctor and his practice was our family business. I think I really wanted to set out on my own and build something and I've always felt that sense of making my claim and I also felt like I knew, even as a resident that and as a fellow, that women were traveling from around the country to get great reconstruction and I needed to go to a community and prove that that could be done there.
Speaker 2:So I came to Austin. I joined a larger group at first but honestly I was really one of the only ones doing breast reconstruction in that practice and I was covering all my own call rounding on all my own patients Wonderful people that I was in the group with craniophacial surgeons and hand surgeons, amazing people that I'm still friends with and still see and consider mentors and colleagues. But I was really doing a private practice in a group because they weren't as comfortable taking care of D-flat patients. So in a really congenial way I approached the group and said you know, I really wanna do this on my own. They waived my non-compete. I walked out of their door one day, walked across the street into my office that same day. So patients just came across the street and I still operate with one of the microsurgents, steve Henry. Every time I do a D-flat he and I operate together and he was my partner in that practice.
Speaker 2:So for me, being in a solo practice felt right. I like to be in control. I like to be able to adjust the dial and see an effect quickly. In a solo practice or a smaller practice I've been able to do that and be nimble. So I can decide that we are going to see every deep flat patient on Friday and I can make that decision. And it happens because we have a small group and because I'm able to do that, I'm in charge.
Speaker 2:I think that with a bigger group those dynamics are different and a little bit slower moving. Everybody's personality is different and for me solo practice has been amazing. It has been hard, but the parts that have been hard have made me a better surgeon. I've learned to, you know, dissect out a flap with myself, without somebody another surgeon doing that with me. I love my physician assistants and I love my nurse practitioner. I rely heavily on those women. I rely heavily on the nurses and MAs in the practice. This is truly a team effort where every member of the team and I think there's 14 of us on my team operate at the top of our capacity and deliver that care from the front desk to the post-op phone call, to the operating room, to the care and clinic. That's awesome.
Speaker 1:I feel like your patients given. On your Instagram that I follow, you have some testimonials that you have posted on there from your patients and I feel like they obviously feel that compassion and that care and that teamwork that you provide in your practice. So it's very, very palpable. I can definitely see it in what they say and in their eyes, and so my next question was all about this kind of emotional journey. You know, breast cancer has proven to be an incredibly emotional journey and I know it has been for me.
Speaker 1:I was really, really thrown when I found out I had to have my breast amputated essentially right, and people don't really realize that and I had comments of things like oh, you know, you get to go have a boob job. And it's like no, no, no, wait a minute. Whoa, whoa, whoa. That is not number one, I've never wanted one. Number two this is not something I've chosen or anything. And like I even had a couple of people say things like oh, you get to have your 20 year old boobs back, and I'm like, no, I don't want my 20 year old boobs back.
Speaker 1:I love my breasts as they are, and so it's an emotional journey. So in your experience, and just to kind of add on to that, how have these surgeries such as Deep Flap changed the trajectory of your patients and their journeys?
Speaker 2:Wow Gosh, I see these surgeries affecting patients profoundly. Breast reconstruction in general, I think, is a way to look forward and plan for the future for patients who are often overwhelmed by the intensity of the moment when they are diagnosed with cancer or facing a diagnosis of cancer. I see that breast reconstruction as an outlet of being hopeful and thinking about who I'm gonna be in 10 years and 20 years. And even just saying that to somebody when they maybe in the back of their mind have thought no one thinks I'm gonna be alive in 20 years, even just saying that you start to have, you see, the sense of relief yes, I do think you're going to be thriving in 20 years. Let's plan for that now.
Speaker 2:I think Deep Flap surgery it's amazing. I see women and patients feel even more themselves after mastectomy, especially women who didn't have access to breast reconstruction and had to go flat or have a reconstruction that really wasn't right for them. When they get that final result and they feel the warmth and that natural tissue and they feel at home in their skin in a way that they haven't in so long, that is profound. There's so many moments that I have in my life where I feel over and over, that I'm in the right place and that I get to witness these beautiful moments of humanity. Right, play a small role in the moment, but witness it. I think that's really sort of what we're all about deep down anyway, right, as humans, when we can get to a place where we are doing something for someone else, just to do something for someone else, and feeling that joy, that is really sort of, to me, the height of humanity, and I feel that in my work.
Speaker 1:Well, I feel like this is not just a job for you, this is not just surgery to you. You have an empathetic way about you that you really get the joy of seeing women transition into just beautiful, even better than what they were before in their mind and their body and their soul. And that is essentially what has happened to me. Because I did not think for two seconds that I would ever feel comfortable in my body at all, I thought to myself my gosh, I'm not going to be able to feel my husband touch my breast or and I've always touched my own breast anyway this is who I am, it's just what we do, right. But I never thought that I would feel good about my body again and I actually told Dr Kabling that if I could never have phase two, for whatever reason, I would feel really good. I do feel really good about what he did in phase one and that was very profound to me and I think he appreciated that. But I do get to do phase two, which is really nice and I'm excited about it. But I feel really good in my own skin and my husband feels that my body looks really good and I don't mind looking in the mirror. I don't feel bad or anything, so just the mirror fact that you are able to be such a huge part of that is just. I mean, you are the type of surgeon that people need to go to when they are faced with this kind of thing. So thank you for doing what you do.
Speaker 1:So I just learned recently that there's such thing as PTSD with breast cancer patients. I actually have gone through it. It was after my surgery, like several months after my surgery I think it was around. It started around late August of this year and through October there's a lot of things that were revolving around that, like the death of my mom was, you know, four years out and my birthday and breast cancer awareness month and all the things right. So PTSD among breast cancer patients what are your thoughts about that? And you've already touched on it a bit, but how do you provide that holistic care for your patients?
Speaker 2:Wow. I think that a diagnosis of breast cancer is traumatic in and of itself. It is a trauma. The bestectomy is a trauma. Seeing your body changed completely, forever is trauma, and it's important to use that word with patients you've been through trauma. It validates the experience. In a way. There's no one way to go through this process. I think for me, saying your feelings are valid, you're experiencing such a difficult thing and I'm here for that and just not directing it where I think it should go, but being present and safe and caring For me.
Speaker 2:I see patients, you know, have different levels of trauma and their experience. Just yesterday I saw a patient who is two years out from her diagnosis and had mastectomy, radiation, chemotherapy, deep lab reconstruction To look at her result. It's absolutely beautiful, objectively and she was crying, crying these very deep tears, right Red eyes. She said she's just now processing. She was in this zone of getting through to the next thing meeting the urgent need of a surgery, chemotherapy, radiation, showing up, doing the thing, and then it stopped. It stopped and she was with herself and she found that she was angry at her body. She was angry at her body. Those were her words. I was just like, wow, what a way to feel. I hear you, I see you.
Speaker 2:I have passed no judgment on that feeling, but I'm here to tell you that we want you to feel safe and supported and there's no feeling that you can have that's wrong about this.
Speaker 2:For me, it's being accepting and safe, allowing a person to go through their process in their own time and being open to that whenever it happens. This is traumatic and there is post-traumatic stress and a patient, for instance, doesn't if I feel like they don't really want to follow up because it's triggering for them to be in the office then we just say call us if you need us and we'll check in. I think you talking about this is trauma doctors being open to that concept and acknowledging that it's trauma, and patients expecting to have a major adjustment that's all steps forward. At the same time, I think that, as physicians who are surgeons, we're oftentimes not trained to be as thoughtful as we need to be and to approach patients in a holistic sense. Doctors see patients as surgeries or procedures or diagnoses, and for me, stepping away from that, really being humans who are with each other, trying to help one another, is sort of the heart of how I do my best, not lessening the trauma, but trying to mitigate harm Right.
Speaker 1:Instead of talking into how they should be feeling or look on the bright side or blah, blah, blah, blah all the toxic positivity stuff that we sometimes hear from doctors. I've even heard them from providers that I've been to that kind of talk you out of, trying to talk you out of how you're feeling and you just can't. I just interviewed a gal this morning. You probably know her, ashley Carton went tough cookie. We were talking about PTSD and she said that it wasn't until after her surgery and all the stuff that she started coming out with this anger and she didn't know where it was coming from. It kind of happened to me too.
Speaker 1:After my surgery, where it was last February I was angry, I was incredibly depressed. I'd already had my surgery and all that. I was recovering, but I was missing something. I had just retired from the school district one week prior to finding out that I had breast cancer. I had my very first year of my retirement dealing with this breast cancer and feeling all the feels, feeling guilty about putting my husband through it and being deeply saddened and all the things. It was February and I was really confused as to why I was feeling that way. Because you just had surgery. You're cancer free, you should be okay, right.
Speaker 1:But what happened was I felt a sense of loss of significance. I didn't feel like I was significant. I didn't feel like I had any kind of purpose at all, because before breast cancer, I had all kinds of things going on. I was a teacher, I had a side job, I had a business, I had another podcast. I had all of these things going on. I was so busy and then, all of a sudden, all that stuff stopped and I just took care of my breast cancer and then everything after that was. I was sort of suspended in this really weird situation. My husband and I were not connecting. It was just awful. We started going to counseling, we started going to therapy, which has helped us tremendously, and that is where Test those Breasts was born. I started thinking to myself you know what I feel like I didn't know so many things that I want people to know before they are even diagnosed. Because I feel like if you know, things like early detection is where it's at Test those Breasts, right, we need to make sure that you get tested and you try to keep on top of that, advocating for yourself, getting a second opinion, speaking up for yourself, right? So my husband named the podcast Test those Breasts, and I thought you know what this is my calling.
Speaker 1:I have this fire in my belly to help other people, and I don't just interview just any old person on my podcast. I'm very, very choosy about who I interview, because I want every single episode to be incredibly valuable to someone out there, whether it be a patient, someone who has someone that they loved, one that has breast cancer, a caregiver out there that needs support, and things like that. So I tend to interview people like you and other survivors and radiologists. I have my radiologist that diagnosed me, whose episode is releasing this coming Sunday. I have interviewed various types of therapists, including my own therapist, and so this is so important to me. That's my fire in the belly from my angle, and I feel like what you do is just so invaluable and I just I get goosebumps even thinking about it. So, and I'm really, really being very genuine with you about that- You're amazing.
Speaker 2:Look at you. You're your purpose. I'm amazed at what I'm learning as I'm listening to you. Listening to you, a patient, talking about not feeling significant, and I'm thinking, well, what a powerful thing to say out loud. And there's so many patients who feel exactly the same way. I'm sure of it. Hearing you say that is going to make me a better doctor. I'm going to carry that forward. So thank you for that, thank you for doing this podcast, thank you for following that drive and that fire in your belly here, because you're helping a lot of people.
Speaker 1:Thank you, you know. It's really good for my healing, but I also get excited because I get people who have reached out to me from other countries. About a month ago, I had a gal reach out to me. She lives in Australia but she's from India and her younger sister, who was 32 at the time she just had her 33rd birthday had just been diagnosed, and so she had somehow run across my podcast and saw my contact information and reached out to me and so I've been sort of helping, shepherd her through as much as I can from my angle. We get on zoom together every Sunday and we talk about her treatments and you know what's going to happen with her hair loss, and I've given her some resources that can help her out.
Speaker 1:This is like I know that I'm making a difference you are and so I just want to keep on going. I want to be really consistent about it. I want to get into. You fill a lot of cups for your patients and you inspire a lot of people like me. What is it that you do to fill your own cup?
Speaker 2:Oh, that's great. I love that. There's lots of things I'd say. I'm a creature. I know myself very well. I know my entire life that there's certain things that make me feel centered. So for me, exercise, sports, using my body in that way not in competition with anything other than myself but for me that's really key. That fills my cup in that personal way where my body not just my body, but my mind feels calm. I love meeting a challenge and feeling that feeling of fear or pain or not being sure and then driving through that. That's a constant in my life.
Speaker 2:I have a good friend who I love rowing. Rowing is amazing. That's something I do. So I rowed. I rowed in college a long time ago and here in Austin, the University of Texas, women's rowing is just a powerhouse. I've had the amazing fortune of getting to know what the assistant coach there is An Olympian, her name is Gia Dunin. Hearing her talk about coaching and coaching athletes at that level. That's very rewarding for me. She said recently to me we were talking about the importance of being strict with yourself but compassionate to yourself. So in the midst of the effort, having the high standard, having the high standard and then, for a moment. If you lose sight of that or it doesn't go just perfectly, have compassion and then you can get back in it. I could talk all day about that and those are the kinds of things that, for my patients, I think about. So I'd say rowing, exercise my dogs I have five dogs.
Speaker 1:I was going to say you like dogs, I like dogs too. So I was like, oh, she loves dogs, I love animals.
Speaker 2:And I think again it's about humanity and the connection with another being or soul. I love connecting beyond words, so for me, loving animals and trying to care for animals and receiving what they're giving, that exchange to me is really beautiful. So I'd say animals and exercise are my two big cup fillers, and then also just the work. I love my work and I'm honest about that. I'm doing a job that fills my cup. I mentally have designed my week to meet my needs. So I'm very intensely focused Monday and Tuesday on operating. I do microsurgery basically all day, and then Wednesday I do other types of cases not microsurgery usually. Then Thursday it's my filling my cup in clinic with patients. What I'm saying is that my week has a rhythm that suits me so that I can exhale and inhale and engage when I need to. But I do have to say so I did have. There are hard things that happen. This year I lost one of my dogs of a lifetime so Judy is her name and she's still present with me, for sure. But when I was a fellow at MD Anderson, they make you the only time you doing sewing blood vessels when you start and when you finish the year and when I went down for the end of the year. The gentleman, the doctor, md PhD, who was in the lab saw me kind of saying thank you to the rat that we were operating on and we anesthetized the rat. But that rat gave itself for that learning and I said thank you and asked if there was like a cookie or something I could go. And anyway he saw that and he said you need to meet my dog. And I was like, okay, what do you mean? And he, long story short, he introduced me to Judy. Judy.
Speaker 2:So MD Anderson has an animal research lab in the basement that's very large and Judy was a full grown dog, blue tick hound, who was in the breast cancer research program. She had had a mastectomy so they removed all of her nipples on one side and our breast tissue. They had removed all of her lymph nodes in her front arm and had radiated her and given her lymphedema and then they had done a flap on her. The study was done and he was supposed to euthanize Judy. He introduced me to Judy, he asked if I would help him save her and so I said I would and I interviewed with the director of the veterinary research department there They'd never released a dog and I signed all of these things saying that I wouldn't bring her back and I wouldn't say negative things.
Speaker 2:And I'm not saying negative things, but Judy went home with me my last day of fellowship and I drove her to Austin and she'd never been outside and she lived with me 10 years. She just passed away in August and she lived large. She came in and met some of my patients. She reminded me always to do the next right thing in front of me, because as a fellow I mean it really when that doctor said please help me. There were a lot of things in my life that felt like this is a you know the right thing, but of course you do it. Of course the universe just presented you with this option and he felt that he couldn't do it. Of course you do it. Judy filled my cup every day. She would lay on my chest when I came home from surgery and she died of a cancer caused by the radiation and she's so special to me. But anyway, that's a sad story, but not because she's still with me. You know.
Speaker 1:It's really interesting that you say that story. We have been living with two German shepherds for 10 and a half years. We have Loki, and Loki's daughter is Delilah. And Delilah, really, she got me through the death of my mother. She was just beautiful and Delilah is Loki's daughter, yeah, so, and then she actually got me through cancer. So she would come into my healing room, she would lay with me, she would be on my bed or the floor or wherever, just to be near me. She would come into the bathroom when she knew I was in distress during treatments and things like that. She would have beautiful doe eyes and just beautiful. And everyone knew the Vaughns had two beautiful German shepherds and tragically we lost her.
Speaker 1:About three weeks ago I was doing yoga and I had just gotten out of my yoga class and my husband had sent me a message and said hey, I took the dogs for a walk, we're in the gully, I need you to come in and help me. Delilah has collapsed. So I ran home, got my shoes on because it was super muddy, and I got my neighbor and we ran in there with a blanket and I called him at the mouth of the gully and said hey, I'm heading in, he says babe, she's gone. It was so tremendous she died in my husband's arms. He was trying to carry, or he carried her probably good half a mile, and by the time I got in there she was, and Loki was just in distress and trying to wake her up.
Speaker 1:And so Loki's super depressed. We're all the Vaughn home is, you know, traumatized, and I know how that feels. I have never felt that way about the death of a dog ever, and I've never seen a dog like Loki mourn at this his daughter, you know. And we do kick around the idea of possibly getting a pup again, not necessarily for us but for Loki. For Loki I'm not sure if it's appropriate. So I think we're going to obviously wait until after my surgery and if the right female German shepherd comes along, we, you know we will consider doing that. But that was same thing. She used to look so deeply into my eyes too and she was so wise and so kind and empathetic and all that.
Speaker 2:So I think the universe is going to bring you on, because the story I didn't tell you is that about three weeks before I met Judy, my dog Bailey died, and Bailey was my dog of a lifetime right, and when I met Judy, that's why it felt like how can I replace Bailey this quickly? But it was the one thing to do. So we'll keep in touch around this point. I think there may be the universe may be sending you another dog.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, I will always keep Delilah alive. We had a little plaque right here. Our friend made us up top here. My husband went up there and says Delilah on it when she was born and when she died. Then we got her ashes and a little paw and things like that and we take Loki up to and walk him every day where it happened and things like that. I want people to follow you on Instagram. You have a wonderful presence on Instagram because you show the real everything. You show the real Dr Potter, you show how patients react to, how you have helped them, and this is really wonderful. What is it that you love so much about this community?
Speaker 2:Wow, I just think the resilience, the honesty, the refining fire of this process, there's just again humanity. I feel so alive when I'm with members of the community who have been through something or are facing something that has really made things that are superficial fall away so that you can engage in a very real and genuine way to use that word used earlier. That's just life to me. And I love women, I love helping women. I feel so deeply that that is part of my purpose. I have always had a strong sense of justice. That is a word that is deep in my soul and there's so much injustice around breast cancer. I think that that drives me to be a protector and a defender and an advocate. But I also feel so fortunate just to be around just pure life. So there's that role of protecting and doing the right thing, but there's also wow, my cup is so full to be with people who are so real.
Speaker 1:I spent my last 20 years teaching ELA and mostly social studies, and so I taught a lot about injustices and protecting women's rights and things like that.
Speaker 1:So I think that's one of the reasons I was so drawn to you as well, especially after my surgery when I found out that there was this coding crisis and again big topic. We can always interview again later, but I want to touch on it a little bit. I ran across you because I found out about this coding crisis in that we almost lost access for so many women to the deep flap surgery and where insurance companies were only going to pay for the trans flap and I didn't even know what the trans flap was, and so now I know the difference that one compromises the muscle and one does not. It's when I realized that I could have been one of those people that did not have access to what I got to do and that freaked me out, and so this is when I started jumping in full on to learn more about this coding crisis and you started noticing something with insurance that was going on and you're like, wait a minute, can you share a little bit about how that came about?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, I'd always known that there were these two different types of surgery because of my experience as a med student and then that we touched on earlier and I knew that in private practice, that in my practice, that there were always challenges with insurance. But I got a letter in the mail something called a coding corner that announced this change. It was in like a little box up in the corner of it. It just said we've agreed to define breast reconstruction with a free flap is they're all the same, basically? And I just was like they are not the same for patients, it is not the same period. And then, of course, the stream of events were only going to pay for the lesser thing. The reimbursement cut is 80%. And then the downstream effects of market economics happen.
Speaker 2:So I'm a smart lady and I saw what was happening and that's just again. The justice fire went off and I asked people to help. I asked the societies, I asked the people you would think would help, and they just had already decided that this was going to happen. I think that, as someone who lives and breathes in rooms with patients affected by breast cancer, that answer just was not sufficient. This is going to happen. It can't happen. It can't and so we made it not happen. And you were part of that. I'm so, I don't know how to say it. We just willed it, we manifested it, we made it not happen, period.
Speaker 1:This is why, when people tell me my vote doesn't matter, my voice doesn't matter, I say that is just bullshit. And I can say that because this is an explicit Totally. I've marked it as explicit. It is bullshit and I have. Actually, when I was teaching social studies and we were talking about voting rights and oh you know whether people should vote or not, and so I go my vote doesn't matter and it absolutely 100% does. Phone calls or and letters and canvassing and all the things they do matter and we got to see exactly what happened and how CMS walked back that decision.
Speaker 1:But this is not the end. I know that one of the things I heard you say is look, we had great success and we made it happen together. We did it together. We had so much, like you said, wielding that and making it happen. But this is not over, and so some people kind of go back into their lives and they just sort of don't really pay attention to women's health and you know what's going on with insurance and things like that. And I'm here to say, and you're here to say that is not true. We need to make sure that we are paying attention. We are constantly paying attention, because it is amazing how some things can happen right under your nose and people don't even know. And if it wasn't for people like you coming out and saying, hey, we've got a problem here. Stop, this is what's happening.
Speaker 2:You know, yeah, yeah, and people like you to just gather together and the patient voice is the strongest thing. I mean that's the revolution. That is the revolution that everyone should be standing up and noticing. Doctors couldn't get it done, societies couldn't get it done, patients got it done, period. So that is the secret sauce. If anyone's like how did you do it? I didn't. I listened to patients and patients did it. And the next thing I mean we're not done.
Speaker 2:So the Women's Health and Cancer Rights Act really is next up and we have to amend that. We have to be more specific about what is protected. 25 years ago was when the Women's Health and Cancer Rights Act was, you know, first begun and it needs to be modernized. We need protection for deep flaps. We need protection for aesthetic flat closures. We need protection for pre-vibers as well as survivors. We need revisions to be covered. We need on-capacity to be covered. We need informed consent to be a national standard. So we haven't stopped. I was in DC recently. I'm going back. Just today I heard good news from DC about that. Stay tuned. I think we'll have another press forward here in the next few months. Okay, good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was just going to ask you what was next for legislation. That's it, and thank you for keeping us informed on that and I will do my best to make sure that I'm sharing and speaking up and things like that Wow. The other thing is is when I was talking to Crystal and Courtney from Perky yesterday, we were talking about 3D nipah tattoos as part of this. It is, they say, the cherry on the pie, or whatever.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's true, right. I know I have talked to people who said, look, I could have gone without nipples or any nipple tattoos or anything like that for the rest of my life and I was fine, I'm cancer-free, my boots looked good and all that. When they got the 3D nipple tattoos and, looking in the mirror, they said it is a game changer, especially with your mental health, and so you know.
Speaker 2:I need to be in the. I can't wait. I think 3D nipple tattoos need to be in there and I think the other thing this is crazy that it's not in there but formula for moms who've had mastectomy. So oh yeah, yeah, because how crazy is this? You've had a mastectomy and the insurance will cover your breast pump. It's impossible to use, but we'll not cover formula.
Speaker 1:Interesting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we can do better, and 3D tattoos are part of that. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Who are making these decisions? Right, gee, who are making these decisions? I have a wonder, my wonder, are there any women at the table?
Speaker 2:You're all male or are there, you know, you're all good.
Speaker 1:Well, and I will say that I'm super excited that the fact that there is a surgeon, a woman, who is just blazing the trails, and I hope to see more women go into your line of work. If you know any other women who are amazing, who are doing what you're doing, we need to know about these people. Yeah, dr Kanya and Arkin Taw, yeah, good, yeah, I need to reach out to her. You know, for such a long time, it's only men that we've known as breast reconstruction surgeons, and so it just warms my heart that there's a woman. And I will say that, had I known about you before, I probably would have looked into learning more about you.
Speaker 1:And I'm not saying because I think that Dr Kapling is amazing and he is a what do we call it? We made decisions together, shared decision making type guy. I interviewed him on my podcast. I just really completely adore him. He is a man, but he did a great job. I just love the fact that there's you out there and this other surgeon, and we just need to keep getting more and more women.
Speaker 2:We do. That's just my two cents. Oh, we do, and I think that there are pioneers and men and women who are great surgeons, and we certainly need all of the great doctors who are out there now, including yours, and I think that part of my mission, part of my mission is to ensure this profession as a sound choice for the future. I want more women to go into this profession and that's because it's so rewarding and I've seen it fill my cup and I've seen it change lives and our patients deserve that. So, yeah, that's part of the grander scheme here.
Speaker 1:God, maybe I can go back to. I mean, I'm 56. Can I get into this? Yes, yes you can.
Speaker 2:We're going to UC Dell Austin for medical school and then rotate here with me.
Speaker 1:Is Perky in Austin as well. I think they are Since San Antonio, oh, ok.
Speaker 2:I sent so many patients to Perky, they did tell me that they're amazing, and it's not just the quality of their work is fantastic. I mean it's really amazing, but their care for patients is top notch and the experience that patients have. And I love the fact that they're not just a business, they are also involved in advocacy and have been pressing with this effort to restore the codes and I mean, yeah, they can't say enough good things about them.
Speaker 1:I got that vibe immediately. I absolutely adore them, and they have a hard time on Instagram being flagged for showing the results and things like that. Yeah, and it's ridiculous, agreed. So last question what big piece of advice can you leave with our audience about? Maybe advice to people who have just been diagnosed or have yet to be diagnosed?
Speaker 2:I'd say the advice is a little different for the ones who are just diagnosed. I would say my advice is keep asking questions until you feel comfortable with the answers. When you're talking about reconstruction, don't take advice from someone who doesn't perform the surgery they're advising you on. They can give you general information, but if you really want to learn about nipple sparing mastectomies, go to a breast surgeon who performs them. If you really want to learn about deep flap reconstruction, get on a telehealth conference. There's so many of us or at least I know I'll do it. I know there's lots of folks around the country who will do telehealth just to talk about options.
Speaker 2:I really can't stress enough that you are only going to be told about the surgeries that the surgeon in front of you wants to perform, and that's a dark truth, but it is the truth. I see it all the time that women in Mississippi, alabama, parts of Florida, idaho when they meet a surgeon who doesn't know how to do natural tissue reconstruction or reconstruction that doesn't remove muscle, they say things like it's dangerous or you're not a candidate. Just don't accept that. Keep looking. So that's what I would say to the person who's really in the thick of trying to find the right person to do your reconstruction. Take advice from someone who likes doing the surgery they're talking about, who's good at it. That's good advice, right? Don't have the surgery with someone who's not good at it.
Speaker 2:I think maybe the take home from that conversation should be well, clearly, you're not the person for that surgery. You might be great at an implant surgery, but not that one. I think for patients who are yet to be diagnosed I mean, let's reflect on that One in eight women will be diagnosed with breast cancer I would encourage every woman out there to think about the odds and to get involved in the discussion around advocacy for breast reconstruction, because you never know when it's going to be you or your sister or your best friend. I would look at your insurance and see what they're doing. I would get involved when we are amending this Women's Health and Cancer Rights Act so, for the woman who's yet to be diagnosed, you can still influence your future and the future of women that you love by getting involved in this discussion.
Speaker 1:Thank you for saying that, because I can't tell you how many people I knew who had breast cancer and how much I did not know. And I knew a lot. Again, like I said, I knew a lot because of I knew what they had gone through, but I didn't know enough, and that is just such a huge mission for me. That's why I say anyone who hasn't even been diagnosed you've got to listen to these, you've got to reach out, learn more, because you will know people who are going to get it if it's not going to be you, and so I appreciate your saying that. That's a very good piece of advice. I have your email, I have your Instagram, I have your Facebook, I have your LinkedIn and I have your website for people to reach out to you.
Speaker 2:I've got it all.
Speaker 1:So I feel like those are great resources. If there are any other pieces of resources that you want to add to the show notes, just let me know. But I feel like you have so much here and I just really appreciate your time your attention your energy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's an honor. It's an honor for me and yeah, you showed up for me and the community big time. You came to the meetings. You were there every time I asked. You encouraged me when there weren't a lot of people out there encouraging me. You'll never know how much you affected that fight, so I am grateful to you and I'm here when you call. Thank you.
Speaker 1:And maybe someday we can all come together and meet each other in person and just give a big hug. Yeah, you can come down, ok? Well, is there anything else you'd like to say before we say goodbye?
Speaker 2:No, just thank you, and it's not goodbye, just we'll see you in a few months. We have more work to do. Yeah, until next time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, all right, dr Potter. Well, thank you very much, and I hope your holidays are amazing and I'm going to keep everybody up to date on Instagram and Facebook of how my surgery has gone. And I do have a few people that I have referred to you, some being that they were told that they were not a candidate, so I'm going to ask them to talk to you first. Awesome.
Speaker 2:Thank you.
Speaker 1:All right. Well, you have a wonderful evening and we'll see you soon, ok, thanks, amy, and to my audience, thank you for joining us and we will see you next time on the next episode of Test those Breasts. Friends, thank you so much for listening to this episode of Test those Breasts. I hope you got some great much needed information that will help you with your journey. As always, I am open for guests to add value to my show, and I'm also open to being a guest on other podcasts where I can add value, so please reach out if you'd like to collaborate. My contact information is in the show notes. I rely on people like you to listen, rate, review and share this podcast with your loved ones, so please enjoy my trailer and any other episodes. I'd love to hear your thoughts. I'm on Apple, spotify and other platforms. I look forward to sharing my next episode of Test those Breasts.
