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Test Those Breasts ™️
This podcast by Jamie Vaughn is a deep-dive discussion on a myriad of breast cancer topics, such as early detection, the initial shock of diagnosis, testing/scans, treatment, loss of hair, caregiving, surgery, emotional support, and advocacy.
These episodes will include breast cancer survivors, thrivers, caregivers, surgeons, oncologists, therapists, and other specialists who can speak to many different topics.
Disclaimer: I am not a doctor and not all information in this podcast comes from qualified health care providers, therefore does not constitute medical advice. For personalized medical advice, you should reach out to one of the qualified healthcare providers interviewed on this podcast and/or seek medical advice from your own providers.
Test Those Breasts ™️
Ep. 48: Resilience in Rhythm with Breast Cancer Survivor & Grammy-Winner Carla Patullo
When Grammy-winning musician Carla Patullo stood at the crossroads of life and illness, she chose a path of resilience and empowerment. Our heartfelt discussion unveils her remarkable tale of survival, as she opens up about her battle with breast cancer and how early detection played a crucial role in her recovery. Carla's story transcends the struggle, morphing into a symphony of advocacy and support within the breast cancer community. As her melodies weaved through the trials of treatment, her Grammy-winning album not only echoes her own healing but stands as a beacon of hope for others, underscoring the therapeutic power of music.
Our episode resonates with the harmony of shared experiences and the strength found in vulnerability. Carla's testament, coupled with my own reflections on overcoming personal hardships, strikes a chord on the importance of community, self-care, and recognizing the profound impact of trauma on relationships. We celebrate her transformation into Carla 2.0, the unwavering support of her partner, and the ripple effect of courage that extends to listeners facing similar battles. Tune in to discover how Carla's tuneful journey through adversity sings a chorus of resilience, inspiring a dance of triumph over life's most challenging moments.
Contact Carla Patullo:
cpsoundry@gmail.com
Carla Patullo on Instagram
Carla Patullo on Facebook
Carla Patullo on Twitter
Listen to So She Howls
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I am not a doctor and not all information in this podcast comes from qualified healthcare providers, therefore may not constitute medical advice. For personalized medical advice, you should reach out to one of the qualified healthcare providers interviewed on this podcast and/or seek medical advice from your own providers .
Welcome to Season 2 of Test those Breasts podcast. I am your host, Jamie Vaughn. I am really excited to continue this journey and mission into 2024 to help shorten the overwhelming learning curve for those who are newly diagnosed, or yet to be diagnosed, with breast cancer. It has been such an honor and a privilege to be able to connect and interview many survivors, thrivers, caregivers, oncologists, surgeons, nurses, therapists, advocates and more, in order to provide much needed holistic guidance for our breast cancer community. Breast cancer has become such an epidemic, so the more empowered we are, the better. By listening, rating, reviewing and sharing this podcast, it truly does help bring in more listeners from all over the world. I appreciate your help in spreading this knowledge. My episodes are released weekly on Apple, Spotify and other platforms. Now let's listen to this next episode of Test those Breasts. Hello friends, Welcome back to this episode of Test those Breasts. I am your host, Jamie Vaughn, and today I'm honored to have my guest, Carla Petullo, on my show.
Speaker 1:Carla is best known for her music that blends lush acoustics with layered vocals and experimental electronics. Her music strives to connect with deep human emotions that are found in moments of grief, healing, redemption and joy. Carla's latest work, the Grammy-winning album, so she Howls, follows a near-death experience from which she emerged with a new sense of adventure and gratitude. Carla's work can also be heard in film and TV, as her body of film scores shows. Petula is passionate about writing music that supports and advances inclusion for women, immigrants and the LGBTQ plus community. Because of Carla's work related to animation pioneer Latte Reniger, two of her film scores were presented at the Academy of Motion Pictures and Sciences Museum. Well hello, friends. Welcome back to this episode of Test those Breasts. I am your host, Jamie Vaughn, and today I'm so honored to have a breast cancer sister on my show, Carla Petullo. Hello, Carla, how are you doing today?
Speaker 2:Hello, thank you so much for having me. I'm happy to be here. Thank you, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, me too. We've been having some technical difficulties in the last couple of days, and so I'm just glad that we are able to connect and have you on the show to tell your amazing story. You have some fun things that you've gone through, some silver linings that we can talk about with your breast cancer journey. So what I'd like to do is just sort of start out with who is Carla Petullo Like? Who were you before your breast cancer?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I'm a composer and a musician and artist and before breast cancer I was a very tough, hard worker. I still work hard, but I was really absorbed in my work to a point maybe where it wasn't so healthy. But I think I was also just so focused on this. I had, like this tunnel vision more, and breast cancer has definitely been this awakening and I feel like I can see things much differently now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I definitely know how you feel. We all go through this interesting journey I went through. I was in a deep dark hole when I first was diagnosed and I really had to figure out a way to pull myself out of that hole because I realized very quickly that if I remained there, that the whole, all my treatments and everything was probably not going to be as good as it actually did end up turning out. So I would like for you to go ahead and just sort of share with our audience what your diagnosis was, what your treatments were and just whatever you'd like to share with us on that part.
Speaker 2:Yeah, luckily I caught mine semi-early. I was stage two and I was triple positive, which when I went into this diagnosis I had no idea what that meant. I didn't even realize there were so many types of breast cancer and, having grown up with seeing people fight this disease and then from what you see on television, it was like just all this fear and anxiety from the beginning and it is a very scary thing. But I do think there's this amazing thing right now where there's been a lot of research in this and, at least for my case, I felt very fortunate for that. Yeah, there are a lot of different breast cancer diagnoses, like different types, and at least for my case, I felt very fortunate for that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there are a lot of different breast cancer diagnoses, like different types, and I remember when I was HER2 positive, estrogen and progesterone negative I was also stage two and I just remember early on when I found out and what the treatments were going to be, and I had friends reaching out to me saying why can't they just get in there and cut that sucker out? And it turns out that that's not how it works. It depends on the type of breast cancer you have and I learned a lot in that regard and again, you and I were talking before we started recording that. I started this podcast Test those Breasts, really with the focus of my audience really primarily to people who've never even been diagnosed yet, because I was so overwhelmed, inundated with information that it was just so difficult to take all in.
Speaker 1:There were so many things I did not know and I really really feel like if the more armed with knowledge we are going into the diagnosis, the better right, and then also understanding that this is men and women both. Anyone can get breast cancer. But I was told before I even got it that this was the sisterhood of all sisterhoods and I have found that. Wow. My friend who told me that was absolutely correct. I am blown away at how many advocates there are people who podcast, people who write books, have blogs and are on Instagram and doing the things that to help other people because we're like, oh my gosh, we have to do something to help people, right, which is why you and I are here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, here to tell your story. So, yeah, what treatments did you go through?
Speaker 2:Just to add on and I'll go into that. But I went to have my first mammogram. So I got this pretty young, at 40, got my first mammogram and that's when they found it. It was my first and last mammogram, you know. So I went through and I did TCHP, which incorporates this Herceptin and which has been a game changer, as you know, for HER2 positive right, and so I was very fortunate to have that. It was very tough.
Speaker 2:It was a long road of taking the Herceptin along with the TC or I don't know the chemo part of it, and then, you know, doing the surgery, then doing the radiation, then doing the. After that there is like the hormone blockers because of the estrogen and stuff, and then there is this like newer drug that helps prevent it, called neratinib, from another prevention drug that has come out, which is like, wow, I felt like I have all these amazing things that 30 years ago wasn't even in the mix, you know. And I did do something called Cadsila, which was after my treatment, after my surgery. It was like this post-drug. So there were a lot of drugs for a couple of years and there were a lot of shifts in my health and my behavior. Like I try not to sit at this desk too long and I don't drink alcohol anymore, just things like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, good yeah. Really thinking about the things that we did before, that may not have been great for us.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I want to walk back a little bit. How old were you when you were diagnosed? I was 40. Yeah, okay. So did you go in to have that mammogram because you felt something, or is it kind of battle?
Speaker 2:I felt something. And I went in to my doctor, you know, and I just had this feeling. It was like a sensation, Like I felt something, but I had really dense breasts so I couldn't really tell. And then I was feeling a little bit of this burning sensation, yeah. And so I said, you know, let me just go. Funny enough, my doctor, who just kind of did like a little exam, she was like I don't really feel anything, but she's like but since you're due for a mammogram, let's go do that. And I'm so happy I did that. I don't know about for you, but for me.
Speaker 2:When I was going through this whole process, I saw some pretty young women, younger than me, with this. That's one thing on my mind is like, why is this only starting at 40? Because I think we're seeing in a lot in younger people. So I feel really lucky that I pushed myself and went in for that. And then also all the pushing I did when I was there, like let's get this done. Now I'm here in LA, they were about to send me away for, okay, you have cancer, your next appointment is 12 weeks from now, and so I had to advocate and find another doctor, change my insurance. Do whatever Actually went to Texas. It was a lot, but that's half the battle. Do whatever actually went to Texas. So it was a lot, but that's half the battle. I think is dealing with that part.
Speaker 1:So well, number one, good for you for advocating for yourself, good for you for listening to your body, because sometimes we don't listen. I have always listened to my body, but for whatever reason, at the tail end of my career. Listen to my body, but for whatever reason, at the tail end of my career, and I was so excited about retiring and I did feel those burning sensation and some little zingers. But I also felt a lump. And when I felt my lump I thought, oh, you know, I just have, I have lumpy boobs because I have dense breast tissue as well A lot most of us do, right, and my husband felt it and everything.
Speaker 1:And so when I called to make my appointment for my mammogram, they asked me if anything was different and I said no, no Cause. I thought, oh, you know, they'll find it in a few weeks when I go in to get my mammogram, and I go every year. I've been going since I was in my forties and I hung up the phone and my husband said that's not true, you do have a lump and you have felt things, zingers and burning sensation. So I picked the phone back up and said I actually do feel these things, and so they moved my mammogram up.
Speaker 2:That's amazing yeah.
Speaker 1:My biggest point there is is that I normally am like, oh my God, there's something wrong, I need to go see them now. And I didn't do that and I think it was just because I was trying to do as much as I could and get through the last few months of my career. You went in and you were like let's do this right now. It's really interesting that that was your first and your last mammogram, and that must mean did you have a mastectomy?
Speaker 2:I did yeah.
Speaker 1:Did you have like the deep flap surgery or something?
Speaker 2:I had a really great breast surgeon who was just able to just do it all at once and I decided to remain flat, okay, because I just didn't want to deal with any. Another friend of mine who went through it. She said don't do it, don't have, you know, a reconstructive. That was her advice and I kind of took it. I had like lost this connection, unfortunately, with my breasts. I was like I just don't want them. I just don't want them, I just don't want to see that. I just and I don't want new ones. It took a lot to going into that test. The things start to build because you then become into this unknown land right when, oh, they have to do a bunch of more tests, and so it's hard to navigate that because you want to listen to yourself but you also have all this fear. But the thing that I try to tell myself is you know, with cancer, the sooner you get in there the better. It's just how it is. The sooner the better, the sooner the better.
Speaker 1:So yeah, and you brought up a really great point is that there are so many women who are younger than you who are getting it Like. I have interviewed quite a few survivors who were in their late twenties, early thirties, just brand new moms and things like that. It's like what is going on here, so using your voice and going in and listening to your body and saying, look, there is something wrong. And you know what Best case scenario, there's nothing wrong. But I feel like there's something wrong and I want to do a mammogram now. But on top of that, people who have dense breast tissue should also push for an ultrasound. Yeah, on top of that. So did you get an ultrasound as well, or how did that work?
Speaker 2:I did. The insurance I was with here is called Kaiser Permanente and they are like at a hospital. So the good news about that was that as soon as I had my mammogram and they're like, oh, we kind of see something, they're like, well, let's do this ultrasound. And they did the ultrasound and I'm like, yeah, we kind of see something, let's do a biopsy on that.
Speaker 2:And normally I would have to come back another day. But I said to the doctor and he was going to schedule me for a couple of days to come back and I said, can we do it now? And I just looked at him and said that and he said okay, and he didn't go to lunch for me. And he did it. But they did that in a stereo biopsy and then within days I got my diagnosis. You know, again I said advocating for yourself to get that done, cause that easily could have been another month just getting those basic tests.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, which is totally insane that anyone would have to wait. When I had my mammogram and ultrasound, I was able to send my results to a really good friend of ours who's a breast radiologist here in town that I would normally see and he was at my retirement party literally three days prior and I sent them to him and he was able to look at those and confirm what the other radiologist was saying and he was able to move my biopsy up by a week to get it done, like just in a couple of days after the mammogram. And then he was able to tell me 24 hours later on a Saturday afternoon when I was camping. So, having those connections and using your voice like that oh my gosh.
Speaker 1:So you mentioned that you made the decision to go flat. My question is is that you said that that was your first and last mammogram? You don't have to have mammograms anymore.
Speaker 2:I don't know, what do you have to do? My doctors? I'm at UCLA here now and they don't do scans. They are very much like if you think there's a reason we need to do a scan, we'll do it. But they do do an exam on my chest wall and I remember when I first came out of it, I actually had a very amazing doctor, dr Sarah Hurwitz, who is part of the team that came up with Herceptin, which is pretty incredible. Yeah, I had her Yep when I first came out.
Speaker 2:You know, after doing the surgery, sometimes you have this like scar tissue and you're just not used to what it feels like, and so I remember being like concerned with it. I said, let me go get an ultrasound. And you know, and I dreaded that, I said that and of course they examined it. They're like doesn't feel like anything, though I've been there before. So they brought me in, they did an ultrasound and it all looked great and it turned out it was just scar tissue. But you know it's hard to push yourself through that Like, yeah, give me a another like anxiety test.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I went into my OBGYN so I had the deep flap surgery where they take the tissue out of your abdomen and reconstruct your breasts. So I don't do mammograms ever again either. If anything, it'll be an ultrasound or whatever. If I feel something and I remember going into her because I felt something underneath my breasts and it felt like a lump so she's like, yeah, she goes, I do feel something there. So we I ended up doing an ultrasound.
Speaker 2:And it was just scar tissue. I know, I know it's maybe you relate to this too obviously, but I often just figure out what my new body is and feel it, just so I know, kind of I have a baseline for myself.
Speaker 1:Right, and that is what my friend Tammy Marcotte would say. She works in radiology and mammography and she says you need to know your own body, Like you should be feeling around, feel here and if you feel something here, go over here and see if the same thing is here. Right, Know your own body, what it should and should not feel like. And it's amazing it's astounding actually how many women do not do those breast exams on themselves.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know it's something I feel like we should be taught very young, just in general knowing that part of ourselves.
Speaker 1:Your story is so amazing. I want you to talk a little bit about your emotions and you know what was going on with you emotionally and how did you find a way to sort of pull yourself out of this whatever deep dark hole that we tend to go into, and then we have to figure out how to get through it. What did you do? What were your techniques?
Speaker 2:I mean, well, music has always been a part of my life, and whether it's from writing my own stuff but also doing like scores and for hot work, for hire type stuff. So I was going through this during COVID and luckily I mean it was horrible that it was COVID, but there was also no work and so I had this time to really reflect on myself and to use my music as this journal and as this very personal thing. It was really hard because in the beginning I didn't even want to touch me. I couldn't even think about music. I was like code red, what's next? What test is next? What am I doing? You know, I remember it was Christmas and I just put it on a good face for my family.
Speaker 2:But like I was full of so much fear and so little by little I started to get to the piano or just sing something in my phone. I started to get this idea, like you know what, this may be my last album. You know, I was like in this real dark place. I'm like maybe this is it. And I remembered how my grandma used to sing to me and tell me record me singing on your tape recorder, because one day I won't be here. So I had this thought I'm going to make this and it's going to be something that's going to be here for my friends and family. And then, slowly, things started to shift. Well, I'm going to finish this this is an album now and I'm going to finish it, and that's my goal.
Speaker 2:As things were progressing, my treatments were working and I was very fortunate for that and so I started to get this momentum. I had a really amazing oncologist, dr Joyce O'Shaughnessy, out in Texas. She's so full of energy and feistiness. She got me feisty and so it just ended up going and going and like throughout this whole journey of this album, then releasing it and sharing it.
Speaker 2:That was another part of it, of the healing, because I had PTSD from it all, and to be able to talk about it or talk about it with people and not get triggered by different things, you know was very hard, and up until that point, it got nominated then for a Grammy award. Up until that point, at the Grammys, it was like it came full circle, where, you know, I really wanted to recognize these women who made this possible for me to be here, because, as you know, like 30 or so years ago, this type of breast cancer was a different story and now it's an amazing story. I just feel so much gratitude and I just feel like emotionally I was able to come around full circle and now like sitting here with you talking about it.
Speaker 1:That's what that's. What I really love is to hear these kinds of stories, because I feel like it gives people such hope. I never listened to podcasts before. I know like when I went through my journey, people said oh, you know, you should write a book, you should do this. People need to find a way to use their creative juices in whatever way. For me, it's podcasting. I love having conversations with other survivors and medical providers, whether they be surgeons or therapists or whatever oncologists, and so that's my healing journey, and I started it. The thought of it came up about a year ago, actually.
Speaker 2:That's amazing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I launched it on the one year anniversary of my diagnosis, and so there was some significance in that and it really has helped with my mental state, because I too went through some PTSD back in October September, october ish and and I think it's really important for people to understand that, because when we get through cancer and we're cancer free or disease free, however you want to say it people on the outside who have never gone through something like this tend to think that, you know, we just get back to normal, like, oh, it's this new normal. We get back to normal. It's like what? We don't even know what that looks like. And so when you kind of grab onto something like so she Howls and creating other songs and things like that to tell your story, it just reverberates throughout our country, the world and truly does touch other people. I'm sure you've had people reaching out to you saying thank you.
Speaker 2:It's been. I love what you just said. My partner calls me Carla 2.0 now. I love what you just said. My partner calls me Carla 2.0 now, and I think I'm the better version of myself right now Because I just I give my body grace, I take care of myself, but also I know what it's like to wake up struggling, and then the days that you wake up where you're feeling great, that part of the morning when I wake up is still to me like I feel great. This is amazing, like I have so much to be thankful for, like, whatever happens the rest of the day, I've got this. There's this strength that comes with it. I think that you know, I was able to just take from it and not let the small stuff get me. You know, now I look at some of the things that used to stress me out and I'm like it'll be fine, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, girl. Yeah, you just went through a huge. Okay, your partner.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:What were they like as a caregiver?
Speaker 2:Tremendous. Yeah, my wife is amazing. We've been through it all. We've been together for a very long time 20 years now. She would motivate me. She never once was like, oh, I'm going to sit here and feel bad for you. No, we got to go. We got to go for a walk right now, let's go. We got to get you moving. But she was also very sympathetic to what I was doing, but not like in this way that it was not giving me momentum. I think that momentum is what kept driving me through it. I mean, I wasn't very active before and she pushed me to go there because she's very active and she was like come on, let's go. We're going to go for a hike, we're going to go climb this very high mountain. There's something that does to your mind. It gives you strength and I really believed it helped me physically. Who knows how this medicine works, but I think that if you give yourself that momentum, everything's going to sync up better.
Speaker 1:Personally, yeah, that was one of the pieces of advice that I was given at the very beginning. I reached out to a therapist in Australia. He's a three-time cancer survivor and I enlisted his help to get me through this dark space before I went into chemo. One of the things that he said is movement, even if it's walking to the mailbox and back, because that movement is going to help with the efficacy of the chemo and the medication. And so my husband we'd been together for you know, I think it's been almost 21 years he got me out. We would every single cycle of chemo. Every three weeks we would get up and we'd do a nice brisk walk around the block. And it was, and I think about that. Those were the memories.
Speaker 1:So it sounds like you have a wonderful love story, that you have had to move through some trauma together. My husband and I have gone through some trauma together, with the loss of my mother, the loss of his father and stepfather, and then, of course, going through COVID together, which was crazy in itself. And then you're dealing with cancer during COVID and that must have been very difficult. I've talked to several people who've had to deal with cancer through COVID and I was on the other side of that. But yeah, kudos to both of you. I was on the other side of that. But yeah, kudos to both of you.
Speaker 1:I want people to understand that while, yes, it's going to suck Like it is no fun, there's no other way to say it it sucks. However, I also can look back and say, okay, we made it through that. It does make you stronger, it makes you look at things differently, it makes you become more empathetic, it makes you really, really appreciate the sun when it comes up every day, or the sun or the snow that comes down and you get through that PTSD. So that just makes me so happy. So she Howls what kind of awards have you gotten? You got a Grammy, and then where else have you been to promote yourself and the song and advocacy for cancer patients?
Speaker 2:You know, I've just been hitting up a few different just all over Spotify and different people have been finding it and adding it to their playlist. That's great. It's just been really grassroots and that was the same with the Grammys. It was just really grassroots of sharing the music and the story and, yeah, I love that because I feel like it's this community of people who are looking for or trying to heal from something. I think that's great.
Speaker 1:I watched your acceptance speech. You absolutely looked very humbled and so grateful for that win and I encourage my audience to go and listen to that. I think we have the link in the show notes of your acceptance speech. We have your website. Can you share what is on your website?
Speaker 2:Yeah, on my website there's a lot of different links to different music and projects and so she howls. You can find all the streaming links for that and and then you can read a little bit more about some of the fun projects I've worked on and people I've worked with, and it's just a space to really see all my work.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I see that you're on Instagram and Facebook and I followed you because I want you to you definitely have, definitely presence.
Speaker 2:I will follow you back. I'm excited to stay in touch.
Speaker 1:So I want to kind of wrap up here by asking you I always ask people what might be the biggest piece of advice that you would give to someone who either has never been diagnosed or someone who has just been diagnosed, and we know where their minds are what kind of advice would you like to leave for them?
Speaker 2:Well, I think where you were going is. It's hard, but if they want to think about it this way, you have the opportunity to change yourself in a good way, to going through it, and I know for me. I was at a point where I never won a Grammy award before and I wasn't very healthy and I feel now, because of this experience, I'm in the best shape actually I've ever been. So I know it's hard and I know it's seems like the end, but don't look at it that way, if you can like. Think about this as a chance to really fight your way all the way to the top, beyond cancer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I would say that too. It is really hard to think that way at the very beginning. I mean because we go through all these emotions like I was angry, I was so mad that I had just I'd worked my ass off for 20 years in the school district, just to retire and then to get breast cancer. I'm like, how is this happening? Went through all the loss of hair. But there are some silver linings to that. I always had long blonde hair for many years and I love my short hair.
Speaker 2:I love your short hair.
Speaker 1:I never had short hair, so I was like I would never do it on purpose, but I'm glad, I'm really glad, and my husband really liked my bald head. I'm enjoying it now and I don't think I'm going to go long again.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I tell you there's this high coming off of this that you're like, wow, you know like I'm happier now, and I know it sounds crazy, but I'm happier now Because I know this feeling of survival. It's incredible to come out of this and just feel like you appreciate life in a very different way. You see things differently now, Totally.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's interesting. Somebody asked me about that. They asked me Are you happier now? And the answer is yes, I am happier now. I feel a different lease on life. I thoroughly enjoy having conversations, like every time I close my computer and today close my phone recording on my phone today every time I finish an interview, I'm like wow, that was really cool. And on top of that, I always learn something from every single person and so I really really get a high, really connecting with people from all over the world. And people are actually listening to this podcast and I just got it trademarked and I just applied for a nonprofit. Cool yeah, because I want to be able to give back to the community at large.
Speaker 1:Anyway, I think that people really enjoy listening to the different types of stories, so I really appreciate your being on here. You're absolutely adorable. You've got a great story. It's very powerful and to my audience, I really, really want you to go and check out Carla's social media, her website, and also listen to the audience. I really, really want you to go and check out Carla's social media, her website, and also listen to the song so she Howls and watch the acceptance speech, because that actually made me cry when I saw that. I thought it was so neat. So thank you, thank you. Do you have anything to say before we wrap?
Speaker 2:up. No, I think, just thank you for having me and hopefully you'll find the album as something to help you get through your struggles during the day. And, yeah, just sending lots of love to everyone out there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think I said listen to the song, but it is an album, just to be clear. So thank you for clearing that up. I appreciate that. Yeah, all right, well, thank you, carla. Thank you so much. You are so welcome and to my audience. Thank you for joining me and Carla on this episode of Test those Breasts and we will see you on the next episode. Bye for now, friends. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Test those Breasts. I hope you got some great much needed information that will help you with your journey. As always, I am open to guests to add value to my show, and I'm also open to being a guest on other podcasts where I can add value, so please reach out if you'd like to collaborate. My contact information is in the show notes and, as a reminder, rating, reviewing and sharing this podcast will truly help build a bigger audience all over the world. I thank you for your efforts. I look forward to my next episode of Test those Breasts.
